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1

MR. WINTERS: By the governor, yes.

2

MR. MARTINEAU: That is universal, isn't it?

3

MR. GORY: Do you find that you get serious

4

help from the laymen in the choice of these judges?

5

MR. WINTERS : Very much so. The way that one

6

chairman of one of the commissions has described it, he

7

says that at the beginning of the deliberations, though

8

laymen tend to he rather silent, these lawyers know these

9

fellov; lawyers and they discuss them freely, because

10

they have known then for a long time. It may not be very

11

long, as the discussion goes along and the laymen listen,

12

they begin to notice some flaws in the lawyers' reasoning

13

and at the conclusion of the discussion the laymen are

14

the ones who may exercise the major influence.

15

MR. CORY: You mean the laymen seem to over-

16

power the lawyers in the final analysis in the choosing

17

of these judges?

18

MR. WINTERS: I wouldn't say they overpower,

19

but as they listen and become informed, they do move

20

into the discussion.

21

MR. CORY: One of the criticisms that I heard