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obtain the same information and it could
be admissible in a civil case?
DELEGATE BOTHE: I think the point
of the amendment is exactly the opposite
to what you state, and that is to make it
impossible for a private citizen to do that
which the State could not do.
THE CHAIRMAN: Your time has ex-
pired, Delegate Bothe.
Delegate Kiefer.
DELEGATE KIEFER: Mr. Chairman,
I rise again, sorrowfully, to oppose this;
but I must oppose it vigorously.
I realize that the Committee originally
had adopted language similar to this, but
I just have to tell you that it is another
example of how a beautiful, sophisticated
lady can twist a bunch of men around her
finger. However, a feiw- days later we came
to our senses and realized that this went
far further than we thought it ought to
go in a Constitution.
When I think of all the things that this
would do I think of the cartoon that I am
sure you have seen of the high school girl
sitting on the phone. She hears a click and
says, "Mother, if that is you on the up-
stairs line, just remember wiretapping is
an invasion of privacy inadmissible and
illegal."
This amendment is fraught with great
danger. It is a real raid on the treasury
and goes far, far further than any court
has every decided, because it gets into
civil and administrative matters. It would
louse up the divorce actions, and goodness
knows what else it would do.
I must say this to you. We are in a very
complicated field of wiretapping and eaves-
dropping with electronic devices etc. We
put in this constitution a very interesting
and I think far-reaching statement when
we said there shall be no unreasonable in-
vasion of privacy, but we must leave to
the courts and to the legislature the imple-
mentation of this concept. It is a concept
that has existed for many years. It be-
comes increasingly important now. How-
ever, do not confuse that concept with this
effort to avoid or eliminate evidence. This
is a rule of evidence. This is a matter for
the courts to determine. It has no place in
the constitution.
Now, as I said, interceptions of communi-
cations and wiretapping, bugging and so
forth, is a very complicated matter. This is
a matter that the Supreme Court has ruled
on in specific cases. It is not quite as
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simple as Delegate Bothe would have you
believe.
In the very recent case of Beryer v.
Neiv York, Justice Black, in his dissent,
pointed out that the Fourth Amendment
does not prohibit the use of illegally ob-
tained evidence. It has been admissible in
common law for centuries, and as long as
the evidence is material it can be intro-
duced.
He did point out that he voted for the
majority in Mapp v. Ohio because it in-
volved a situation involving the Fifth
Amendment, and he thought it was a situa-
tion where the evidence should be excluded.
This is a very, very complicated case.
Remember, a woman never loses an argu-
ment. At best, she fails to make her point.
I hope that she has failed to make her
point and that you will reject this amend-
ment.
THE CHAIRMAN : Is there any further
discussion?
(There was no response.)
Are you ready for the question?
(Call for the question.)
The Clerk will ring the quorum bell.
Delegate Bennett.
DELEGATE BENNETT: Mr. Chair-
man, our distinguished Chairman has given
us some beautiful generalities here this
evening on women and various other things,
but all this amendment says is: Do you
mean what you say? Do you mean to dis-
close or to refuse? Do you mean to dis-
close?
If you mean to say that there are cer-
tain kinds of searches and seizures that
should not be allowed and then to enforce
that, you have got to provide that the evi-
dence so obtained cannot be introduced.
That is a simple, straight-forward ques-
tion: Do you mean what you say?
Now, if you mean that interception of
communications should not be allowed, then
you vote in favor of this amendment. If
you want to leave it in vague generalities
with no enforcement provisions, then you
vote against this amendment.
It is up to you to decide whether you are
opposed to invasions of privacy. It is up
to you to decide whether you are opposed
to wiretapping.
If you are opposed to wiretapping and
you want to see the wiretapping ban
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