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good. I just hate to see us shorten this con-
stitution down in an important part like
this when we have provided all kinds of
little derails of how the General Assembly
shall be run and how the Courts shall be
operated. This is just going too far.
THE CHAIRMAN : Is there any further
discussion?
Delegate Willoner.
Is Delegate Willoner in the room?
You asked a question before. I do not
know that this would be an answer, but you
might consider whether or not the existence
of the Thirteenth Amendment to the Con-
stitution of the United States would re-
move your concern as to imprisonment for
debt.
Is there any further discussion?
DELEGATE WILLONER: Is that not
the Schafley Article?
THE CHAIRMAN: It is indeed, but it
goes much further than that.
DELEGATE WILLONER: Has it been
held?
My only question was, and the question
I had in committee, was simply if we elimi-
nate this provision, can the legislature im-
prison for debt?
The answer was, as I recollect, and as
Mrs. Bothe recollects, that it could.
Now, if it has been held otherwise, I am
glad to go along with Mr. Scanlan.
THE CHAIRMAN: I do not want to
make an off-the-cuff comment on that. I
would suggest to you that the Thirteenth
Amendment would probably prevent the
legislature from providing for imprison-
ment for debt. It certainly would be in-
voluntary servitude for other than convic-
tion of crime.
Delegate Kosakowski.
DELEGATE KOSAKOWSKI: Mr. Chair-
man, I rise in opposition to Delegate Scan-
lan's amendment. I believe this section is
too important, and I believe if the lawyers
cannot agree in here and there is any
doubt, let's not eliminate this section. I be-
lieve it is important to leave it in rather
than to create any doubts in the mind of
anyone concerning imprisonment for debt.
I would urge this assembly to support
the majority committee recommendation.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any further
discussion?
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Delegate James, did you want the floor?
DELEGATE JAMES: I just wanted to
say that I do not feel like testing to see
whether the Thirteenth Amendment of the
federal Constitution will keep me from
being incarcerated for debt in the event I
became unfortunate in later life.
THE CHAIRMAN: Delegate Taylor.
DELEGATE L. TAYLOR: Mr. Chair-
man, I just want to make this point: There
are many men who are ordered to pay a
court order, and because of their particular
education and training cannot obtain em-
ployment, and many times they may have
the skills, but cannot obtain employment.
So many times they are ordered to pay the
court order and cannot find the means to
pay the court order. And of course, many
men have been imprisoned because they
have fallen behind on the court order. Now
this, of course, is a circumstance beyond
our control, and of course they are impris-
oned because of a social handicap. I feel
therefore that we should keep this in the
Constitution.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any further dis-
cussion?
Delegate Sherbow.
DELEGATE SHERBOW: My only sug-
gestion is that no matter how this goes, the
language in the report on page 6 which
says, "If this prohibition were removed
from the present Constitution, the General
Assembly would have the power to prevent
imprisonment for debt and could also pro-
vide exceptions as it so desired."
I end that quote, although there are a
few lines more.
The Chairman's reference to the Thir-
teenth Amendment led me to say I most
earnestly hope that by the time we get
through we have in this as part of our
deliberation a real memorandum of what
the law will be, depending on what we do.
I would hate to see it in this State.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for
the question?
(Call for the question.)
The question rises on the adoption of
Amendment No. 20 to Committee Recom-
mendation R&P-2.
The Clerk will ring the quorum bell.
The question arises on the adoption of
Amendment No. 20. A vote Aye is a vote
in favor of Amendment No. 20. A vote No
is a vote against.
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