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provide for the restoration in this constitu-
tion. Of status which is real and meaningful
to many people.
THE CHAIRMAN : Delegate Kiefer.
DELEGATE KIEFER: Mr. Chairman
and ladies and gentlemen, I rise to oppose
this amendment, and I will do so by saying
to you that this is a concept of probation
and restoration of criminals. I do not have
any objection to it per se, but this is purely
a statutory matter. We could literally load
this constitution with all kinds of things
similar to this.
This is not of constitutional statute. I
hope you will defeat it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any further
discussion?
(There was no response.)
Are you ready for the question?
(Call for the question.)
The Clerk will ring the quorum bell.
The question arises on the adoption of
Amendment No. 18. A vote Aye is a vote
in favor of the amendment. A vote No is a
vote against.
Cast your votes.
Has every delegate voted? Does any dele-
gate desire to change his vote?
(There was no response.)
The Clerk will record the vote.
There being 23 votes in the affirmative
and 82 in the negative, the motion fails and
the amendment is rejected.
DELEGATE KEY: Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Delegate Key.
DELEGATE KEY: I have a question. I
wonder if Delegate Kiefer could tell me,
would not section 3 cover those persons re-
ferred to, in this amendment that we just
defeated?
DELEGATE KIEFER: Delegate Key, I
think it might very well, particularly if it
involved the due process of law.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any other
amendments to section 8?
Delegate Bamberger.
DELEGATE BAMBERGER: Mr. Chair-
man, I have an amendment to section 8, but
it is merely to clarify, and perhaps if the
Chairman would respond to some questions
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about section 8 it would not be necessary
to offer the amendment.
THE CHAIRMAN: Has the amendment
been printed?
DELEGATE BAMBERGER: I have not
yet seen it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Very well.
Delegate Kiefer, will you take the floor to
yield to a question?
DELEGATE KIEFER: Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN : Delegate Bamberger.
DELEGATE BAMBERGER: Mr. Chair-
man and Delegate Kiefer.
On line 5 the prohibition is against cruel
and unusual punishment being inflicted. I
presume it was not the intention of the
Committee that the issue of whether or not
punishment is cruel and unusual could not
be raised until it had actually been in-
flicted, that is, until the sentence had been
served or the execution had been held?
THE CHAIRMAN: Delegate Kiefer.
DELEGATE KIEFER: Well, Your
Honor, I have got to look at this. This is
fairly standard language. Let me take a
look at it. I do not mean to be facetious,
Delegate Bamberger, but you will just have
to give me a minute.
The first answer I could give you is that
it is almost exactly the language of the
Eighth Amendment to the United States
Constitution: "Excessive bail shall not be
required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
THE CHAIRMAN: That is exactly the
same as what is in Article 25 of the Bill of
Rights.
DELEGATE KIEFER: He can complain
before he is punished.
THE CHAIRMAN: Delegate Bamberger.
DELEGATE BAMBERGER: Why did
you not follow the language of the com-
mission's draft which prohibits both exces-
sive fines and cruel and unusual punish-
ment whether provided by laws or imposed
by the courts?
In other words, as I read your section,
this would not prohibit the General As-
sembly from passing a statute which pro-
vided for an excessive fine or a cruel and
unusual punishment.
THE CHAIRMAN: Delegate Kiefer.
DELEGATE KIEFER: That I can an-
swer. We thought this was more inclusive.
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