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Delegate Burgess.
DELEGATE BURGESS: Mr. Chairman
and ladies and gentlemen of the Conven-
tion : I think we should consider that we
have created a new set of courts. We have
set down requirements for those courts.
Those are the people who are going to be
considering the question of bail.
We have set clown stringent requirements
for their particular right to sit in that
office. Now we turn around and say we
really do not trust their judgment after all.
Bear in mind that when the accused first
appears before the judicial officer, he is
not even sure of what his name is or where
he lives or anything about him. There is
no way to determine this on initial contact.
He has to try to hope to make a good value
judgment. There is no other way to do it,
than to use his experience and common
sense and sense of fair play.
If you think these judges are going to
work hardships on the poor, do not worry
about it. For example, a car thief will
make bail bond. He will have the where-
withal.
Releasing a man on personal recogni-
zance would not be effected by section 8 (A).
He would be released on the promise that
he would appear.
In fact many of these acts are set out
just that way, there are alternate pro-
visions given ranking from such things as
personal recognizance on up to a security
bond but there has to be somebody with
the responsibility of exercising that judg-
ment.
You have set up this four-tier system of
courts. I suggest these will be the men on
the firing line trying to make this judg-
ment.
THE CHAIRMAN: There are a very
few minutes left for discussion. I suggest
that each subsequent speaker restrict him-
self to not more than one minute.
Does any other delegate desire to speak
in opposition?
Delegate Chabot.
DELEGATE CHABOT: Mr. Chairman,
all this material we have before us in this
Declaration of Rights, and that we are
going to be considering, consists of limita-
tions on one or more branches of the gov-
ernment, limitations upon their discretions,
standards which must be used in order to
recognize their discretion.
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The cognate provision of the present
Constitution clearly is intended to and does
put limits on the exercise of discretion by
the courts of law.
That is the language that is used in
Article 25 of the present Declaration of
Rights. We have been told that without
the language of section 5(B) the judge
can constitutionally keep a person in jail
until trial because the judge can predict
that this person may jump bail.
I suggest we should therefore support
the Committee in keeping 5 (B).
THE CHAIRMAN: The Chair recog-
nizes Delegate Johnson for one minute.
DELEGATE JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman
and fellow delegates, to my mind this is
the most dangerous provision before us,
namely this section 5 (B). There may have
been a time and there probably was a time
when a similar provision was necessary,
but with the bail reform that has taken
place, I submit to you that it is not only
unnecessary but unwise to adopt a similar
provision. I am very happy to note and
gratified that Chairman Kiefer thought it
would not make any difference either way.
To those of you who are on the fence,
I strongly urge you to vote for the amend-
ment. I have no idea what "other terms"
means. I have no idea what the term
"reasonably necessary" means, and I think
this would just require a judicial interpre-
tation from now until this section remains
in the constitution.
I strongly urge you to adopt the amend-
ment.
THE CHAIRMAN: The Chair recog-
nizes Delegate Marion for one minute.
DELEGATE MARION: Mr. Chairman,
Delegate Burgess said this reflected a dis-
trust of the judiciary. I do not think adop-
tion of 5 (B) would reflect a distrust of our
judiciary any more than would the adoption
of section 3 which certainly restricts the
judiciary by saying "no person shall be
deprived of life, liberty and property with-
out due process of law."
Those words are equally hard of in-
terpretation and have been and will con-
tinue to be the subject of court determina-
tion.
They are important words. They are en-
grained in our Constitution and nobody
would seriously consider taking them out.
THE CHAIRMAN: You have one-quar-
ter minute.
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